Valve Developer Community talk:Moderator elections

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And now in more detail

(using Template:Message) Who are all those people who refuse to see the majority of candidates as moderators? Why did anyone other than you offer ideas for improvement and express negative opinions at the right moments when something was wrong? Where have you been before?

Now let's talk about something else. What is a normal wiki for you? One person gave an example with prop_static, a page that my contribution barely touched, and which is INCREDIBLY disgusting in its visuals. How do you even read this crap? Do you like it when a bunch of gray text exists on your screen?

I may change this message later. I don't have enough time to write a proper question yet. --THE OWL (talk) 15:09, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) We expressed our concerns when you started doing things like editing protected pages, but you ignored us. --SlimekPL (talk) 15:13, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Template:Text --THE OWL (talk) 15:42, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Arguing about the quality of specific edits is pointless, you clearly have no intention of listening to people's complaints. You clearly see this site as your own personal pet project given the thing about wanting FTP (just ridiculous). Just because you make a lot of edits doesn't necessarily mean you're improving the quality of this wiki, frankly I'm baffled when I try to use this site and see the mess of templates on every page. Spamming changes doesn't make you a good candidate for a moderator. Find another hobby! --Fingerprince (talk) 15:22, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) IS it really that hard to believe that there are other users out there who don't like the current state of the VDC? MOST of which is a direct result of you and this "team_34"s so called contributions? Many of us find it near impossible to edit even basic pages to add information for the games we work on due to the clusterbutt that currently exists. --Haaselh0ff (talk) 15:23, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Templates are a good thing but when there are a lot of them with lots of links it becomes hard to read. And when you find a grammatical error you go to the edit page, you actually have to go to the multipage, then to the template that grammatical error is in and only then on the strings subpage find the needed string. --Mr. SystemError (talk) 15:33, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message)  As I have already clarified on the candidates page and on my page, Team_34 has nothing to do with this site. This team is my personal project and has nothing to do with this site.  --Max34 (talk) 15:40, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message)  It has dawned on me that several accounts have been created by people solely to participate in this vote. I'm not really able to cross-check if someone is using sockpuppets, but some of them have obviously been on this wiki before; I'd heavily encourage well-established wiki members to participate in votes here and I'll probably go based off of what those people say rather than the several accounts created today that are only being used to participate in this vote.  --PabloS (talk) 15:52, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Most of these new accounts are users who are active in other communities, Vaya is an active Mapcore admin and moderator, Squidski is an active Source Engine Discord admin and moderator, Slimek is a mapper who has had multiple maps featured in CSGO, Angel is an active developer of Source 2 Viewer and does amazing work as a mapper as well, these users have newer accounts but are pillars of the community who have qualms about the current state of the VDC and the reason it's in such a state is because of these very users who are trying to prop themselves up as moderators of it. --Haaselh0ff (talk) 15:57, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) The VDC has been in a terrible state since at least early 2023, when THE OWL and other users practically took over the wiki --SlimekPL (talk) 16:00, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) I'll keep the votes. I'd encourage more users to run, though. --PabloS (talk) 16:05, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Fair point Pablo, I was hesistant about voting anyway. I'm a Momentum Mod and Strata dev/licensee so quite active with Source work, but not an active contributor, I'll remove my vote. I do think it's fair however to voice that I think these guys are spamming crap changes and making one of them admin would probably lead to endless further drama. --Fingerprince (talk) 16:10, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Give me 5 (or more) clearly described examples of the negative impact of our contributions on the wiki and I will tell you why this is not true or why I have been wanting to change this for a long time. We did too much work and the only examples were prop_static whose page didn't really change, or protected pages that we edited for the right reasons. I'll be changing a lot of things towards the end of 2024, too much, so a clear description of the problems will only benefit the wiki. But, don't suggest something like "I don't like the new stuff, I want to sit with a broken UI from 2010 and a clutter of plain gray text". And yes, a bunch of complicated templates is our mistake. This I will try to fix in the future, leaving only the most important.

You can do all that without being a moderator. You don't need to wait for this election to start fixing things (that were broken as part of this ongoing UI revolution). The rest was already explained. You're using a strawman argument when appealing to "I dont' like new stuff" mentality. This isn't the reason why. The negative impact that you caused is very broadly spread across the wiki, cherry-picking 5 examples won't cover it. It's the clown makeup colourful categories, it's taking up all the extra space with extra borders and rounded corners and tabs, it's all the extra icons, the shaders classification, the fluff that spreads everywhere. I implore you to NOT "change a lot of things" if you're not going to change your approach. Cvoxalury (talk) 10:55, 17 June 2024 (PDT) --THE OWL (talk) 17:28, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Pablo - I've mainly just been a lurker. I saw the vote and wanted to try to ensure that this vital resource wasn't further ruined by a small group of users. I don't think a wiki should double up as a quasi-social media site. It runs terribly now to the point where more and more people are put off using it. People using the site as a resource should get a vote too, no?

    OWL - don't take these votes to heart but most people just want to be able to use (and update) VDC as a quick resource. you are destroying that with your changes, so please stop. --Vaya Mapcore (talk) 17:48, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Why don't you write about the specific problems of certain pages?! I'm not going to get out of my own way if the speech never moves from "Well, people don't want something there, you need to stop".

First I will finalize the templates and the social part, then I will take care of the articles, after that I will switch to files and technical pages. It's a goal I'll reach in an already predetermined way if, instead of offering suggestions for improvement, you just suggest I stop.

You do need to stop, because it's not some few specific problems. It starts with step one, the MAIN PAGE. It faces us on every major page for topics ranging from tools to shader parameters. You're abusing your ability to make a ton of edits in the same pushy, argumentative, non-listening manner, that people don't have time or energy to oppose on every turn, then a few months later you have this body of work people didn't ask for, and proclaim that you're not going to stop. You're not helping both with these edits and unwillingness to back up. Cvoxalury (talk) 11:02, 17 June 2024 (PDT)

And if you think there's a predetermined way to get what you want, well, we'll just keep reverting. Cvoxalury (talk) 11:06, 17 June 2024 (PDT) --THE OWL (talk) 17:57, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) The problem is the changes you've been making to the wiki since circa February 2023 aka all of the bloated and completely unnecessary templates --SlimekPL (talk) 17:59, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Also you mentioned a social part, this wiki does not need a social part, it is a developer wiki for a reason. --Angel (talk) 18:18, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) All of the entity pages have become very bloated over time, full of random colors. If an entity has a lot of bugs / warnings. It should have its own subpage or an section, no layering ontop of layering. If you look at official wikipedia you don't see any visual mess, it's structured and disciplined. We need to keep the information short, structured and readable. I am against anyone doing edits to posts/templates in the last 2 years. --Darnias (talk) 18:18, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Hi: just a general reminder for people to attempt to be at least sort of civil. I'm fine with and can understand what has been said by others, but I'd rather not have users start valiantly attacking each other. Thanks. --PabloS (talk) 18:24, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) As for the users voting: I'm of the understanding now that some of the people replying are affiliated with the community in some way, which I'm fine with. Your votes will be counted, folks, don't worry. --PabloS (talk) 18:26, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) If "THE OWL" editing this to move all the arguments from under the votes to the talk page as we speak isn't showing what we've all been arguing for, I dont know what will. This behavior exemplifies perfectly why we have voted no. --Angel (talk) 18:34, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) I'm sure everyone is aware why we suddenly banded up to voice our opinion on certain users. Editing/deleting stuff on a TALK page is definition of power tripping, this should be civil discussion, nobody other than actual admins have rights to delete/move stuff. Just so you can doesn't mean you should. --Darnias (talk) 18:46, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

Max34

 No: 

one of the users actively making the wiki worse by adding lots of superfluous functions such as achievements, information about unpopular mods etc etc. I don't think Any of this group of users should get any additional controls. --Vaya Mapcore (talk) 06:52, 17 June 2024 (PDT)

(using Template:Message) Template:Text --Max34 (talk) 15:18, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Template:Text --Vaya Mapcore (talk) 15:26, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Template:Text --Max34 (talk) 15:54, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Template:Text --Cvoxalury (talk) 17:18, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Could someone tell me why is there a big commotion about this?

(using Template:Message) Okay so I am not part of any groups or teams that work with source, nor have I kept up with whats going on this wiki for a while, as I only come online once a while to edit my pages, or to document something, but I was just wondering why are so many people really dissatisfied with this wiki, like ofcourse I understand the fact that its quite hard to readnow, which is also my fault as I was the one who turned the "Third Party Source Tools" into a christmas tree, but still I just wanna know why people are dissatisfied. --Toligon (talk) 19:51, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) I would like to know this as well. Many users decide to speak up now about this, why not speak up earlier? If you had quarrels with how this wiki was turning out, you could have created an account months ago to speak up. Seems very odd to me. --Equalizer5118 (talk) 20:14, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message)  I would want to know too. Suddenly when there's an election, they speak up, "why not speak up earlier?" -Equalizer5118, i agree with Equalizer5118, i don't know where and when did those things happen, mostly its about templates which i haven't payed attention to them.

Except this WAS spoken about. People DID speak up before, myself included, when the main page went through a redesign many didn't want (and it was kind of-half resisted). This hasn't happened for the most part before, because the changes were incremental, and even though annoying, most of just chose to just look up what we came for, wave off the annoyances, and carry on. It was happening for too long and too broadly and quietly to try and grasp at it when it was the time. Plus, I'm sure many people just kind of take for granted that "oh, on valve wiki a design changed, well it probably came from above, shrug then". Now when the topic of moderators came up, this is a very imporant and, dare I say, dangerously empowered position to be in - as moderators can block people. Block opponents, I mean. Now that I noticed that we're not alone (and I was surprised to see how many red votes were about the same topic, which I shared), I saw it as a good time to bring up these things and maybe hope something changes finally. Cvoxalury (talk) 13:41, 17 June 2024 (PDT)

 --N0one (talk) 20:32, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) The topic has been brewing in discord based communities for some time now. I don't think most (myself included) know how to exactly raise issues about the VDC. Where do we bring up conversations like this exactly? Other than per page discussions :P --Ozxybox (talk) 20:21, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) I'm just speaking up now before problems are made worse here. If you look through the talk history with some of the users voted down you'll notice they have been told before and it was ignored. Trying to keep a wiki on track is a war of attrition when you have multiple users trying to turn it into facebook-lite so a lot of people have noped out of attempts to keep this place course-correct. I would rather this RESOURCE wasn't completely taken over by these users, so I signed up and have been voting accordingly. I still believe this wiki is beyond saving at this time but hey, I think my opinion also matters here. Maybe with a couple votes we can make this place a little more usable. --Vaya Mapcore (talk) 20:23, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Yes, like where exactly are you supposed to bring up these issues if you had a hiatus from updating the VDC and then came back to find a mess of template pages that you need to navigate. I think there are some things that look very nice and are super helpful so I tried to design, for instance, the level design page of the Counter-Strike 2 section to match the HLA section but to edit that page I can't simply hit the EDIT button like a sane person would, I have to hit the Pencil icon of the language page selected. And then after editing that page I can't just save the page and expect it to update, I have to purge the page because page itself doesn't get updated immediately with the template changes I assume. It's just a weird amount of extra work and it just all seems to silly to me. I may not know a lot of the issues other people have but that's just some of my experience with all this. I think a simplification of things is in order, this is a developer wiki, not a social media platform. I edit pages to add information that would be helpful to someone who may be in my shoes in the future just like someone else did before me for Source 1 mapping and I just want it to be easier to do. --Haaselh0ff (talk) 20:44, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

Template Lasagna?

Hi there, and sorry if this is irrelevant to the discussion. I've noticed that a lot of voting centralizes on the core problem of the VDC slowly getting converted into a confusing lasagna of templates. Some of the most active editors at the moment are quite fond of the layering, as it allows them to do more. For me at least, I'm clueless about how the templates work and find it difficult to find where content is when content is connected via multiple layers of subpages. Small templates that contribute to making a page richer or templates that make pages look more consistent are great though! I just really quite dislike being completely lost in many many layers of subpages...

Does the VDC have a contribution guideline? I'm not sure where it is if there is one. Would it be reasonable to get a vote to add a guideline against making lasagna pages? I think it would resolve a fair number of the discussions and comments more directly than voting on people who are for or against the lasagna. Not sure if this is the right way to ask about this! Ozxybox (talk) 20:07, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)

There's an overview of templates at Help:templates, but it's not in the greatest shape. I can explain any you don't understand how to use.

As for why there's so much discussion around it, it's a complicated issue and it's hard to find a balance between streamlining information and being easy to edit. A good example is {{this is a}} and {{multipage}}. Using them together removes a lot of redundancy in explaining what a command, variable, point entity, etc. is, because the basic information is automatically translated into many different languages. On the other hand, it's just another template that makes pages more complicated. While this alone is not a significant issue, the number of templates that are currently on pages makes it difficult to edit. I think more discussions about keeping and documenting specific templates would be helpful. Pee (talk) 20:44, 17 Jun 2024 (UTC)