Template talk:Language/archives/MultiPage

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Uselang vs Subpage

(using Template:Message)  I don’t understand why this template is designed to link to some strange “uselang” page rather than a language subpage as documented. Also, if it was done as documented, why is English a subpage of an English title main page? Just curious. Great work on the template, and general site maintenance, by the way, we’ve needed it.  --Pee (talk) 0:00, 16 Feb 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message)  uselang is just an interface language setting, not a link. There is also a {{uselang}} template on the site, which allows you to determine which interface language the user has. When opening a page that uses {{MultiPage}}, a user will see this page in the language of his interface, if this article is of course translated into it. If not, it will display a small message about this and show the English version of the article. The English language also has its own subpage, because if you put the text in the main article, you won’t be able to remove it to replace it with the translated article.

For example, this method will remove the need for suffixes in all links. The language subpages will be exclusively technical pages that will already be displayed on the target page, depending on the interface language specified in the user settings.

So far, this template is not fully completed, so some things may not be very convenient right now. At the moment, there is an idea to add instead of an edit button, a small drop-down list with all the necessary buttons to work with pages (edit, purge, etc.).  --Max34 (talk) 1:58, 16 Feb 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message)  Looking into it, it’s pretty difficult and counterintuitive to temporarily modify the entire page, and it makes it difficult to edit. I think you’d be better off simply linking to language subpages as the wiki currently does (including English, though), but still automatically translate the main page.  --Pee (talk) 21:30, 22 Feb 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message)  You can access any language subpage using the drop-down list (), and to edit the language subpage without going to it, there is a pencil button for this, it immediately switches to editing the language subpage that is currently displayed relative to the interface language. So far, this whole idea may not seem the most convenient, but that’s because it’s not yet complete. The idea of ​​using language subpages as the main ones is not considered, since this is exactly what we are trying to get away from. It is planned to add a separate kind of flags directly on the language subpages so that you can switch between them without using the main page.  --Max34 (talk) 21:48, 22 Feb 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message)  Why avoid subpages? it seems that nothing gets accomplished by avoiding them, other than requiring a second UI menu, and changing the UI language for the duration that someone’s on a page.  --Pee (talk) 22:09, 22 Feb 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message)  Avoiding language subpages as the main ones will eliminate any need to add language code to links on pages. Since there is a one main page, you can link to it from all languages, for example [[Page]]. In the case of subpages, you will have to add the language code for each language individually, for example [[Page/es]], [[Page/ja]], etc. It will also help to better sort these pages into categories, as language subpages won’t be counted, meaning there won’t be a need for hundreds of variations of the same category for different languages. Also, this method will simplify some things, for example, you don’t have to use the {{sdktools}} template on all language subpages, for example Hammer++ pages, you can simply place it on the final page at the end and it will be displayed in any interface language on this page.  --Max34 (talk) 22:30, 22 Feb 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message)  I agree with your reasoning, but why use an / for the subpage instead of the

?

 --Amicdict (talk) 15:55, 1 Apr 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message)  MediaWiki (what this wiki is based on) does not know how to work with colons, but it knows how to work with slashes. If text separation worked on this wiki, relative to the selected character (in MediaWiki it is called {{#explode:}}), then switching to slashes would not be necessary.  --Max34 (talk) 18:24, 1 Apr 2023 (UTC)

Adding Esperanto as a language

(using Template:Message)  I will only make bare minimum and schematic changes, so if they need to be reversed, it won’t take long.

Mi faros nur minimajn kaj planecajn ŝanĝojn en okazo de ebla reversiĝo do tiu ago ne estos tro atentantan.

Pri Esperanto / About Esperanto: https://lernu.net/esperanto.  --Amicdict (talk) 21:42, 31 Mar 2023 (UTC)

Mess

(using Template:Message)  I also want to discuss this thing. Right now editing this wiki page is much more work – you need to click on more interactive elements just to get to the editing. And when you finish editing, results do not appear on a main page – you have to click “Purge” in order to update things. This is really inconvenient and why – just to have a localized help? It is a well established norm to have a technical documentation in English only (since English is the international language), so why bother with localization? This is not a Wikipedia – this is a technical documentation! To code things you need to know English anyway.

Also this method of localization presents a big problem: data separation. One language page can add information, that will not be transferred to other localized pages automatically. Right now the other page (chineese or whatever zh stands for) hasn’t been updated and i doubt it ever will. Documentation needs to stay a documentation, that is, have one exact data set without the need for others to transfer data between pages. Otherwise, people will stick to the most complete version (which is English right now) and multipage functionality will become just a major annoyance (which it is right now).

So, is it really worth the complications to have a localization mechanism that violates the main requirement of the documentation – to be accurate? I fail to see the real usefulness of the change.  --Xandros (talk) 16:31, 3 Apr 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message)  I agree about the inconvenience of switching to editing. I think this problem can be partially solved by making the edit button as a separate one, so that you do not have to open the drop-down list every time.

I have already explained most of the reasons why this way is better here. But the main ones are: almost complete elimination of work with suffixes in links/templates, titles of articles and categories (no more links like [[Page:es]] on the Spanish page, only [[Page]] everywhere and no more hundreds of thousands of categories and templates in different languages); the ability to use, for example, {{sdktools}} on all pages, specifying it only on the main one.

What about data separation is that it has always existed. If you have edited an English page, pages in other languages ​​will not be edited by themselves. A huge number of pages in other languages ​​have not been updated for a long time and this template has nothing to do with it. On the other hand, if this template helps to fix… I think I have an idea how to at least partially correct this situation. The idea is quite complex, so it may not be possible to implement it on this wiki, but it’s worth a try. I will try to do something about it soon.  --Max34 (talk) 21:54, 3 Apr 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) 

It is a well established norm to have a technical documentation in English only (since English is the international language), so why bother with localization?

— Xandros

Except this isn’t even true; many large projects have translations for technical documentation. Also, acting like English is the “international language” is straight up Anglocentrism (and to begin with the internet and tech industry is heavily Anglocentric). See: https://thepolyglotfiles.com/2018/10/29/should-english-be-the-official-language-of-the-world for more info.

To code things you need to know English anyway.

— Xandros

The only reason for this is because most developer tools are only developed for English speakers, which is again a result of Anglocentrism. There are already programming languages with foreign languages.

We bother with localization so that other people can play. Now of course, the way localization was handled (from the start) on this wiki is IMO just horrible. The best solution (if one wanted to use English as a base) would have to been to do what Wikipedia does: Setup different subdomains for each language and to default to English.  --Amicdict (talk) 22:32, 3 Apr 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message)  Sorry, i didn’t noticed how my message has been transferred here (no notification on e-mail either).

Except this isn’t even true; many large projects have translations for technical documentation.

— Amicdict

The key word here is LARGE. And by LARGE i mean projects/organizations that have both money and resources to maintain the documentation in several languages. They do not outsource it to a wiki and say “here, translate it yourself”. And while i understand your political view on things, i disagree with English being a problem (even though English is not my native language).

But that is not the point. My point was mainly about the inconvenience this mechanism is providing without actually being useful. In my opinion machine translation with user corrections would be much better, than turning documentation into a Wikipedia clone.

If this feature is not going away, is there any way to at least get rid of the requirement to manually purge the main page? Because people do not visit localized pages – they are usually satisfied with what they already see on the root page (which is outdated, unless you purge it manually). Also a good idea would be locking the ability to edit the main page, so people cannot accidentally edit it. Otherwise – i can live with having to press 2 links instead of one.  --Xandros (talk) 02:21, 4 Apr 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) 

And when you finish editing, results do not appear on a main page – you have to click “Purge” in order to update things.

— Xandros

We sacrifice the convenience of editors for the convenience of users. If it’s so lazy for you to press two additional buttons, then this is not our problem. As soon as it becomes possible to get rid of them without losing functionality, we will do it.

To code things you need to know English anyway.

— Xandros

I didn’t know that when I make a map, I do coding .

When did it become so called and since when should I use English if I have a native language that I initially understand better? Also, there are many people who do not know English for various reasons and who want to read the correct translation. Translation software cannot satisfy the desire of such people to the fullest.

Also this method of localization presents a big problem: data separation.

— Xandros

This is a problem for any wiki. Wikipedia also does not shine with articles perfectly translated into all languages. There are hundreds or even thousands of garbage pages on it. That is why there are templates that allow you to find such articles and correct them. Btw, doesn’t {{Lang}} have this problem? It creates a ton of useless links, categories, articles and much more that we have to delete, which is what {{MultiPage}} will help us with.  --THE OWL (talk) 11:42, 4 Apr 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) 

The key word here is LARGE. And by LARGE i mean projects/organizations that have both money and resources to maintain the documentation in several languages.

— Xandros

Like Valve? https://levvvel.com/valve-statistics.

Btw, doesn’t {{Lang}} have this problem? It creates a ton of useless links, categories, articles…

— THE OWL

Ugh, no? What useless stuff does it create exactly? And how is {{MultiPage}} any different?

Like, for example of useless stuff: Why have an {{Emoji}} template, when Unicode Emojis already have existed for years in UTF-8? (This site already uses UTF-8 btw!) Not many Pages even use it.  --Amicdict (talk) 16:33, 4 Apr 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) 

We sacrifice the convenience of editors for the convenience of users. If it’s so lazy for you to press two additional buttons, then this is not our problem.

— THE OWL

I was talking about convenience of the user here! I am not lazy to click buttons – there are NO instructions for new editors like “Please, press this button to refresh the cache after you finished your editing”. And had to learn to do it the hard way, which is why i feel irritated. And, in my opinion, users suffer too because of that – somebody changes something and forgets to refresh the cache. In the end users lose more than editors.

As soon as it becomes possible to get rid of them without losing functionality, we will do it.

— THE OWL

Thank you, that was all i wanted to hear. Just that, without any personal attacks. I have no further questions – have a nice day, everyone.  --Xandros (talk) 17:32, 4 Apr 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) 

Ugh, no? What useless stuff does it create exactly?

— Amicdict

Thanks to {{Lang}}, we have language categories, language links, suffixes in templates and many other things that we need to remove. I wasn’t speaking literally when I called {{Lang}} the creator of all these problems. This template is one of the parts of this deprecated page translation system, which gave rise to the Main Page:de, Category:Level Design:zh, |suf=de and much more.

It seems that I said a lot without thinking about it for a long time, while I was hurriedly going to leave. Basically, I said what I wanted, but not in the way I wanted it.

Like, for example of useless stuff: Why have an {{Emoji}} template, when Unicode Emojis already have existed for years in UTF-8?

— Amicdict

I don’t consider them useless and that’s why:

• The emoji design will be the same for all OS;
• They work on Windows XP, Windows 7 and other systems that generally do not support modern emojis, since they do not have the right font.

I am not lazy to click buttons – there are NO instructions for new editors like “Please, press this button to refresh the cache after you finished your editing”. And had to learn to do it the hard way, which is why i feel irritated.

— Xandros

Oh, sorry about that. A lot of work has been done recently. At the moment there is not enough free time to write good documentation for newly created heavy templates .  --THE OWL (talk) 18:28, 4 Apr 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) 

Thanks to {{Lang}}, we have language categories, language links, suffixes in templates and many other things that we need to remove. I wasn’t speaking literally when I called {{Lang}} the creator of all these problems. This template is one of the parts of this deprecated page translation system, which gave rise to the Main Page:de, Category:Level Design:zh, |suf=de and much more.

So why even mention {{Lang}} then? Also, there wasn’t much discussion on the translation method to begin with, leading the method to be unrefined.

I don’t consider them useless and that’s why:

• The emoji design will be the same for all OS;
• They work on Windows XP, Windows 7 and other systems that generally do not support modern emojis, since they do not have the right font.
  — THE OWL

The same can be said for UTF-8 Emojis. e.g 😀😃😄  --Amicdict (talk) 22:15, 4 Apr 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) 

A lot of work has been done recently. At the moment there is not enough free time to write good documentation for newly created heavy templates .

— THE OWL

I understand. Is there anything i can do to help improve the situation? Maybe play with the template somewhere and document it somewhere?  --Xandros (talk) 18:17, 6 Apr 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message) Template:Text --THE OWL (talk) 18:30, 7 Apr 2023 (UTC)

(using Template:Message)  There is a instruction page about translating in Valve Developer Community namespace, which is Valve Developer Community:Alternative Languages. This page should be improved to indicate others how to do translations with the new translation templates.  --1416006136 (talk) 0:23, 8 Apr 2023 (UTC)

Short pages with MultiPage are listed under Special:ShortPages

See 31. (hist) ‎VPK ‎[13 bytes] for example.

Lxm6 (talk) 19:51, 10 April 2023 (PDT)

Translations appear along with English versions

See Special:PrefixIndex/trigger for example.

Lxm6 (talk) 19:55, 10 April 2023 (PDT)