View source for Template talk:Branch-navbox

{{Discussion page}}
{{Expand|title=Archived 1/31/24|
== a solution ==
since people are now removing random other stuff from this, here's a fun solution: have this template be official branches only and add a third party branches box similar to the official/third party sdk tools template. c'mon guys, it's not rocket science, it's a wiki. there's examples of how to resolve this situation already on here --[[TF2CutContent]] ([[User talk:TF2CutContent|talk]]) 17:17 20 April 1942

First, it's not really a question of third party or not, it's what actually qualifies as an "engine branch". Taking Mapbase as an example below, Mapbase does not have access to base engine code, only the game code available in the public Source 2013 repo. Alien Swarm Deferred is the same, as it only has access to what was made available in the Alien Swarm SDK. These two modifications can only adjust existing entities or features and create new ones with the tools they have available in those repos, and cannot edit the base game code at all. In the words of the Mapbase MODDB page, 
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{{quote|"Mapbase is NOT an improved version of Hammer '''or an improved version of the engine itself'''. It is a fork of Source 2013 which acts as a regular sourcemod."}}<br>
However, Strata and the Titanfall branch ''do'' actually qualify as branches because they edit the base game executables and binaries. That's how they can do major things like add x64 support, DX11, Native Vulkan support, increase map limits, all that fancy stuff. It was never really a question of official or not, rather if it was actually an "engine branch"
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Second, creating a "third party" version of this navbox wouldn't necessarily be that efficient either. Each official branch stems from the last one, while third party branches stem from different branches. For example, Titanfall is built off of Portal 2, while Strata is built off of CSGO. We cannot have a navbox that is structured like this one if we do have a third party one, because while Strata is built off a newer version of Source, that doesnt mean its a newer version of the TF branch, if that makes sense. We can have the current box structured like 
{{codeblock|{{l4dbranch|4}} → {{portal2branch|4}} → {{csgobranch|4}}}} 
because they actually build off each other (hence why Hammer++ for CSGO can work somewhat for Portal 2, as their branches are very similar due to CSGO being just a newer version of Portal 2). However, we cannot have something like 
{{codeblock|{{tfbranch|4}} → {{Strata|4}}}} 
as Strata does not stem from the Titanfall branch. There would only be two third party branches if we did follow through with this, and that would not only look weird, but would also have to be structured like the {{tl2|portal games}} navbox and would look very odd.

Also, as a side note, while {{bms|4}}'s "Xengine" would technically also fall into the umbrella of "engine branch", as it does have access to all the things stated above and does fulfill all the qualifications needed to be an engine branch, only Black Mesa uses that engine branch, so at least in my book it doesn't qualify to be on this template. --[[Equalizer5118]] ([[User talk:Equalizer5118|talk]]) 17:13, 16 Jan 2024

What is this solution? Fork and branch are not equal... I agree with the position of the Equalizer. I think the same. For some it’s just food for thought, we can’t write this mod based on {{mb|4}}, but we can write this mod based on {{src13|4}} ({{mb|4}}). Can also come up with a workaround, in the form of a “forks” template (actually base mods) which are not a game. --[[NOUG4AT]] ([[User talk:NOUG4AT|talk]]) 17:37, 16 Jan 2024

== Alien Swarm Deferred should not be on this template ==

Alien Swarm Deferred just adds CSM, Volumetric lighting, Blinn–Phong reflection model and just adds code to {{as|4}} like {{mapbase|4}} that adds code to {{src13|4}} --[[Utopic Tahu]] ([[User talk:Utopic Tahu|talk]]) 11:59, 16 Jan 2024

== Mapbase should not be on this template ==

Mapbase is a mod of {{src13sp|1}}, and is in fact not an engine branch. A actual third party engine branch would be the {{tfbranch|1}} or {{strata|1}}, both of which make substantial changes to the engine (dx11, larger maps, 64 bit, etc.). Mapbase is a fork of Source 2013. It is not a branch, rather a mod. It does not belong on this list.
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Please discuss any backlash on this edit here. I don't want to start any edit wars. --[[Equalizer5118]] ([[User talk:Equalizer5118|talk]]) 6:27, 30 Dec 2023
I concur, it's a fork of game code only, not engine code; it is not a branch. --[[SirYodaJedi]] ([[User talk:SirYodaJedi|talk]]) 17:09, 12 Jan 2024
if it ain't the thing what it's being purported as being, get it off the thing what it don't belong on --[[TF2CutContent]] ([[User talk:TF2CutContent|talk]]) 17:17 12 Jan 1969
Just fact: '''Mapbase is a base mod for Source SDK 2013 which expands and improves the toolset available to modders, augmenting other maps and mods for development purposes. Level designers would create their maps based off of this mod and larger mods with their own unique changes would draw from Mapbase's code and assets.'''<br>This has always been a mod, and inclusion in the list of branches is misleading... --[[NOUG4AT]] ([[User talk:NOUG4AT|talk]]) 17:25, 12 Jan 2024

I feel like it should still be here for clarity. While Mapbase doesn't make as many changes as something like Strata, it is, technically speaking and for all intents and purposes, a branch. It has it's own git commit which is completely separate from base Source's. Although it's used in a different way to create mods, since it's already a mod which is just intended to be built upon, that doesn't really change much about the development process. If you want to add custom entities, it's still the same as how you would do it in normal Source or any other branch, by programming. Although you could technically call any mod a branch, I feel what makes Mapbase different is that it doesn't have any "game" (ie. a campaign or multiplayer or whatever else). The only difference between Mapbase and something like Alien Swarm Deferred is that Mapbase isn't referred to as a branch, and that the early phases of development are already somewhat in place. So in conclusion, I feel like it should be kept because for anyone searching/looking for modified versions of Source, Mapbase is in practice just Source, but with new features, much like Strata or whatever else.<br>
Honestly looking at the other responses, I'm probably objectively just wrong. --[[Wisdurm]] ([[User talk:Wisdurm|talk]]) 17:32, 12 Jan 2024

If we consider the original repository, at least it is truly a mod rather than a separate engine. But the changes contained in it are indeed to some extent global, but we cannot put it on par with the Titanfall branch, where the engine is redesigned. Here, as is known, only a fork of {{src13|4}}, but at the same time containing some improvements and details from other SDKs.[https://github.com/mapbase-source/source-sdk-2013]. Technically calling this a branch is incorrect because it is a mod. But this mod has many things that makes think. --[[NOUG4AT]] ([[User talk:NOUG4AT|talk]]) 0:50, 13 Jan 2024

It appears that the majority of users say that it is not an engine branch. As such, I am removing mapbase from the template for the (hopefully) final time. --[[Equalizer5118]] ([[User talk:Equalizer5118|talk]]) 3:08, 14 Jan 2024

== Reverting/fixing this template ==

So after the Mapbase and ASD were added and removed, this template became pretty broken or atleast on Full HD monitors, because well it was splitted into two rows. So I decided to copy paste one of the old versions of it and removed mapbase from it. If anyone doesn't agree with what I did thats fine, you can revert the change. The only reason I did this is because with new users or readers the layout can quite easily confuse people. --[[Toligon]] ([[User talk:Toligon|talk]]) 16:58, 19 Jan 2024

I think your edit can be left. That's right. --[[NOUG4AT]] ([[User talk:NOUG4AT|talk]]) 19:05, 19 Jan 2024
}}

== Xengine ''does'' belong on this template ==

According to our previous logic which is stated in the archived messages, we defined "Engine Branch" as any game or collection of games which has access to the base engine code, not just mod code. Such engine branches include {{Strata|3.1}} and {{tfbranch|3.1}}, but do ''not'' include {{mb|3.1}}, which is a mod. This would make {{Bms|3.1}}'s "{{xenEngine|3.1}}" an engine branch by our own logic, and does give it a place on this template.

I don't like how it destroys the neat line break we had previously, may need to do some restructuring of the box to make it less ugly. At least on a 1515x851 display. --[[Equalizer5118]] ([[User talk:Equalizer5118|talk]]) 20:18, 31 Jan 2024

It should stay because it is more like {{strata|3}} and it's not like {{mb|3}} --[[Utopic Tahu]] ([[User talk:Utopic Tahu|talk]]) 16:08, 2 Feb 2024

== Should Dota 2 Engine branch be on the template? ==

Should Dota 2 Engine branch be on the template? --[[Mr. SystemError]] ([[User talk:Mr. SystemError|talk]]) 20:04, 5 Apr 2024

i thinks yes, but like before-reborn update… but I doubt, because Dota 2 Engine branch is updated to Source 2. And in fact it’s already not Source 1. --[[NOUG4AT]] ([[User talk:NOUG4AT|talk]]) 20:12, 5 Apr 2024

The page for {{dota2branch|4}} is being made{{Tint|color=white|<sup>''(edited)''</sup>}} --[[Mr. SystemError]] ([[User talk:Mr. SystemError|talk]]) 16:29, 8 Apr 2024

== Should {{punt|3.1}} and {{p2d|3.1}} be on the template? ==

On their pages it says that they use heavily modified engine branches. --[[Mr. SystemError]] ([[User talk:Mr. SystemError|talk]]) 7:17, 6 Apr 2024

Должны ли {{punt|4}} и {{p2d|4}} быть на этом шаблоне? На их страницах сказано что они используют сильно модифицированные версии бранчей движка Source. --[[Mr. SystemError]] ([[User talk:Mr. SystemError|talk]]) 12:51, 14 Apr 2024

== Should HL2 Beta (Source 2003) be on the template? ==

{{vtmb|3}} is made on it. --[[Mr. SystemError]] ([[User talk:Mr. SystemError|talk]]) 10:52, 30 Apr 2024

Also, should {{gmod|4}} be on this template too because it runs on its own fork of {{src13|4}} --[[Mr. SystemError]] ([[User talk:Mr. SystemError|talk]]) 10:57, 30 Apr 2024


<small>(using [[Template:Message]])</small>&nbsp;Определенно уверен что нет, я даже не уверен в содержании XenEngine. Один пользователь устроил некий бардак с этим. Хотя я думаю, это приемлемо, но не должно становится "мейнстримом", бранчи использующиеся исключительно одной игрой/не имеющие какой-либо подробной документации не должны быть перечислены. Наличие XenEngine сомнительно. Создавать отдельные страницы для бранчей одного проекта - того не стоит, это должно быть частью статьи про этот самый проект.&nbsp;--[[User:NOUG4AT|NOUG4AT]] ([[User talk:NOUG4AT|talk]]) 18:07, 30 Apr 2024 (UTC)