Talk:Successful Mod Team Tips

This is a rough draft of what I hope can be a good set of pointers and tips about what makes a good mod team. Tell your stories both good and bad! --Holtt

• Thanks Tim - I'll add my comments from projects i have been involved in. --Amckern 03:49, 29 Dec 2005 (PST)

Robin Walker's presentation contains tips for teams.

• Small as possible
  • Focus on production
  • Avoid management
  • Don't hire anyone until you're about to fail
• Scope design by resources
  • Don't grow the team to fit the design

I myself still believe in one person mod(from Garry's Mod to latest Mistake Of Pythagoras)...careful design can make it possible and it can still deliver a new experience.--n-neko 05:45, 29 Dec 2005 (PST)

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I think people need to realise that they are making a mod. People don't get paid, they do it out of fun. A lot of the modern HL2 mods seem to be started out with the intent of being the next CS. I think this thinking is doomed. You should do it because you love doing it not because there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. A lot of people disagree with me here but I also kind of think that artwork and maps should usually take a back seat until you've actually got something hard out. I don't really agree with huge teams. You only really need a programmer and a fluffer to get started. Always bear in mind that it's just a mod.

My mod team "nightmare" came from the realms of Nuclear Dawn. They had some really awesome concept art. Their mod leader (DaveK or something) contacted me and asked me to join. I explained that I was really busy with my own stuff but I'd help them out when and if I can. So he gave me some dumb assignment (predator texture on player model). Which I did and he seemed pleased with. Then 2 days later he told me on MSN something like "Thanks for your interest but I don't think we're going to be needing your help" and I was like "Oh ok".. and he explained that I was too slow. Ok I thought. Then a week later he contacted me again and was like "Hay do you want back in" and I was like "HELL NAW". I was talking to a mapper that used to be on their team and he told me that they went from a 40 man team (yes, 40 - WHAT) to 5 in the space of a couple of weeks. I think the moral of the story is that mods are meant to be fun, when it turns into unpaid work people leave.--Garry Newman 07:31, 29 Dec 2005 (PST)

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I'm pretty much going to echo Garry. People need to work on mods - there's too much focus on model renders and epic "media releases." Few actually heed Valve's advice and move towards rapid prototyping and strong gameplay ideas. Instead, they decide to remake their favorite game (Halo, Resident Evil) into their own version, which seems really foolish to me. Modding is about strength of ideas and gameplay, not the number of weapons, not an absurd number of maps!

I was part of an HL1 modification called Nightwatch. We were, arguably, some of the most talented members of the community. And yet, we still failed to release. I'm not pointing any fingers, because I don't think it's really anyone's fault. But nonetheless, "restructuring" after "restructuring" forced us to remake older, perfectly good content. The missile silo levels were deemed "too futuristic" and remade, even though we didn't have the time. There were too many warehouse levels (there were), so we shifted them around and changed them, even though we didn't have the time. The story was reorganized ENTIRELY, making some levels obsolete - even though we didn't have the time. With the release of HL2, another restructuring took place, and the HL1 content was dropped. More people left, including me (I was basically dead weight though, I felt guilty). I'm not sure what the team is currently doing now, and while I really wish them luck, it still looks like they're stuck.

So: 3-4 years of work; ~20 (fantastic) maps, 1000+ textures (or some other giant number), 4-5 NPC models, quite a few weapons, lots of music and sounds... Gone. What's the lesson? I'm not too sure myself. But I think it's something along the lines of: Make a mod, not a game, not a media release. Make a mod. "Ambition" can wait, if you really want to call it that.

If something's not working or taking too long, scale it back, cut the feature out. Don't rationalize it by "staying loyal to your fans" or "wanting to release a quality experience." If you don't release something, you won't have fans nor an experience. Nightwatch is still a bitter regret for me - we should have released something, just something, to justify all those long hours working on it... But we didn't. Wow, now I'm not even sure what I'm talking about anymore. I'm losing focus. I'll just stop here. --Campaignjunkie ^(talk) 11:59, 29 Dec 2005 (PST)

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Key points from an interview of Erik Johnson (One of the two developers of the original Team Fortress and Team Fortress Classic and now a Valve employee) about they way he sees mods today:

• They are becoming far too hesitant and conservative in their approach to how they design, develop, and release their games
• Right now it appears that too many MOD teams believe they have to build the next huge hit with their first release, which is a plan that is pretty likely to fail.
• The thing that the successful MODs all had in common was that they all had a single idea that they were going to use to drive their game design forward, and it was a good one.
• Sometimes it feels like the MOD community is becoming more and more like the "professional" game community
• Second, and just as important, they shipped as fast as they could and then continued to ship and ship and ship. Successful MODs measure their success after each release and use what they learned to form the ideas for the next one
• The one MOD that seems to have taken a more iterative approach has been Garry's MOD, who I think has shipped close to 9 versions of his MOD in less than a year.

--RP 14:08, 29 Dec 2005 (PST)

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I'm not a kiss and tell man ;) ^Ben 08:57, 29 Dec 2005 (PST)