Talk:Map Obfuscator
I can understand why you made this, and it's not that I have a problem with people protecting their creations, but I think these sort of programs tend to create a negative atmosphere. Sharing of information is an important part of keeping the Source mapping community alive, and it's a shame that for so many people, "sharing" is synonymous to stealing and VMEX'ing. More than anything, it's a shame that these kinds of programs have to exist in the first place. --Msleeper 09:04, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- I strongly agree with this sentiment. Pilk (talk) 12:28, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- I made this at reepblue's request. People steal things a lot and recently there has been a huge spike in the amount of Portal content being stolen. I actually haven't used this on any of my maps, because I don't really care, but some people do and I'd like to give them the option if they so chose. --Omnicoder 19:00, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- I try to make it a habit of releasing my VMFs either with the map or shortly after release, especially when I include something that's somewhat unique. If more people did things like that, it would create less of a "I made this now respect me" mindset and more of a "this was a good idea, look how I used it" mentality. Again, I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't get credit where credit is due, but if people took half the effort they put into "protecting" their creations and used it to spreading knowledge on how cool things are made, I think in the end everyone would benefit. --Msleeper 05:28, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Эх, люди! А создание чисто карт в бсп с интересными вещами только вызовет ответный резонанс среди игроков и картостроителей. Вот вы говорите украдут, а вы знаете, что такое монополия? Билли тоже был подвергнут критике. Людям хочется видеть, как устроены те, или иные штуки и феньки, они хотят создавать ПОДОБНЫЕ! Замечу, создавать подобные произведения, то есть не воровать их, и делать в точь в точь. Многие картостроители, чтобы понять, как устроены вещи, которые они видят в игре, им просто необходимо взламывать чужие карты. Конечно, я не наблюдал на картах bsp защиту, так что это делает взлом всегда успешным. Ну почему людей охватывает жадность? Ответ ищите в себе. Поделиться с другими - и поделятся с вами. --]{o$Тя 17:49, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- No one is forcing you to use it. I don't even use it myself as I don't care if people want to decompile my maps. Some people wanted it and I have given them the option. Debating the morality of it isn't going to change the fact that some people don't want their work decompiled. --Omnicoder 20:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- The fact is some people will want their maps obfusticated and some won't, and there's no point in trying to convince everyone to share everything because that will never be universal. This discussion is hardly related to improving the Wiki, anyway. I'm curious though, does decompiling work well now? I remember if you decompiled an original GoldSRC map back in the day, the world brushes would all be chopped up to the point the map was uneditable. Thelonesoldier 22:48, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Since when have talk pages been about "improving the Wiki"? I thought they were for... talking about the article at hand. As the name implies. --Msleeper 05:24, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- Source BSP files can be decompiled very well, due to the fact that the whole brush data is stored inside the compiled map file (together with the polygon data that is used for the actual rendering process). It's a similar situation as with bytecode programming languages like Java, where reverse engineering can be hindered by obfuscation only. With the small difference that there isn't much inside a VMF file you can obfuscate... with exception of the entity logic. --Barracuda 00:48, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- I've actually found a way to mangle brushes in a way that they cannot be decompiled but still contain all data the engine needs (not in the released version yet) which prevents the decompilation of even brushes. No way to get around it aside from building each face into it's own brush and merging brush models which creates a map just as bad as GoldSrc maps were when decompiled (try decompiling in Face mode in vmex to see an example). --Omnicoder 01:14, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- Well, if it's possible to strip all data from LUMP_BRUSHES and LUMP_BRUSHSIDES without breaking the map, it would indeed make brush decompiling results much worse. But I'm quite unsure about the engine dependencies for these lumps... --Barracuda 03:11, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
- Qphysics relies on brushes, if you remove those lumps the player falls through the world, but physics props still collide with it. I've been able to remove all unneeded brushsides successfully though, which makes VMEX throw out tons of 'huge brush' and 'null brush' errors without affecting the map in the engine. --Omnicoder 14:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
- Well, if it's possible to strip all data from LUMP_BRUSHES and LUMP_BRUSHSIDES without breaking the map, it would indeed make brush decompiling results much worse. But I'm quite unsure about the engine dependencies for these lumps... --Barracuda 03:11, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
- I've actually found a way to mangle brushes in a way that they cannot be decompiled but still contain all data the engine needs (not in the released version yet) which prevents the decompilation of even brushes. No way to get around it aside from building each face into it's own brush and merging brush models which creates a map just as bad as GoldSrc maps were when decompiled (try decompiling in Face mode in vmex to see an example). --Omnicoder 01:14, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- Блин люди, чё вы паритесь? Всё просто, декомпилируйте обычным декомпилятором, смотрите, делайте всё, что считаете нужным и все счастливы. Нет надо выводить всё на всеобщее обозрение. Компилятором лучше пользоваться одним, а то будете чепижить с несколькими. Хотя... Если аФФтарские (author rights) права соблюдаются и они защищены, то, конечно, фиг лучше ничё не декомпилируйте, а то хлебнёте поколено. о_0 --]{o$Тя 09:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- Bit difficult for me to reply to Russia autotranslated into mangled English but if you said what I thought you said: nothing in Source is hard to recreate yourself if you are a good mapper. Given an issue of how to implement something anyone who knows what they're doing will arrive at a similar solution. Me and reep had very similar solutions for making the Portal 2 Repulsion Gel, for example. If someone doesn't want people decompiling their map it is still easy for any decent mapper to recreate it. Or they could just ask the original mapper which is better because they would also be able to get permission to use it. --Omnicoder 12:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- Difficult find tutorial for recreating many interest things.
- Bit difficult for me to reply to Russia autotranslated into mangled English but if you said what I thought you said: nothing in Source is hard to recreate yourself if you are a good mapper. Given an issue of how to implement something anyone who knows what they're doing will arrive at a similar solution. Me and reep had very similar solutions for making the Portal 2 Repulsion Gel, for example. If someone doesn't want people decompiling their map it is still easy for any decent mapper to recreate it. Or they could just ask the original mapper which is better because they would also be able to get permission to use it. --Omnicoder 12:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- The fact is some people will want their maps obfusticated and some won't, and there's no point in trying to convince everyone to share everything because that will never be universal. This discussion is hardly related to improving the Wiki, anyway. I'm curious though, does decompiling work well now? I remember if you decompiled an original GoldSRC map back in the day, the world brushes would all be chopped up to the point the map was uneditable. Thelonesoldier 22:48, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- No one is forcing you to use it. I don't even use it myself as I don't care if people want to decompile my maps. Some people wanted it and I have given them the option. Debating the morality of it isn't going to change the fact that some people don't want their work decompiled. --Omnicoder 20:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- Эх, люди! А создание чисто карт в бсп с интересными вещами только вызовет ответный резонанс среди игроков и картостроителей. Вот вы говорите украдут, а вы знаете, что такое монополия? Билли тоже был подвергнут критике. Людям хочется видеть, как устроены те, или иные штуки и феньки, они хотят создавать ПОДОБНЫЕ! Замечу, создавать подобные произведения, то есть не воровать их, и делать в точь в точь. Многие картостроители, чтобы понять, как устроены вещи, которые они видят в игре, им просто необходимо взламывать чужие карты. Конечно, я не наблюдал на картах bsp защиту, так что это делает взлом всегда успешным. Ну почему людей охватывает жадность? Ответ ищите в себе. Поделиться с другими - и поделятся с вами. --]{o$Тя 17:49, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- I try to make it a habit of releasing my VMFs either with the map or shortly after release, especially when I include something that's somewhat unique. If more people did things like that, it would create less of a "I made this now respect me" mindset and more of a "this was a good idea, look how I used it" mentality. Again, I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't get credit where credit is due, but if people took half the effort they put into "protecting" their creations and used it to spreading knowledge on how cool things are made, I think in the end everyone would benefit. --Msleeper 05:28, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- I made this at reepblue's request. People steal things a lot and recently there has been a huge spike in the amount of Portal content being stolen. I actually haven't used this on any of my maps, because I don't really care, but some people do and I'd like to give them the option if they so chose. --Omnicoder 19:00, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
- hah, Русский набирает популярность во многих странах ;) . Конечно, неправильно, если человек, который делает свои карты на подобие тех, которые входят в содержание ПЛАТНОГО mod, но если карты бесплатны ;) то сейчас популярнее среди разработчиков карт, в большинстве случаев многопользовательских (multiplayer), дюелать открытый код (Open Source), в архивах (rar or zip etc.) картостроители (mappers) добавляют также и .vmf файлы. Не все же люди в мире жадные, не так ли? ;) А как вы знаете сами, запретный плод сладок! Чем больше запрешаешь людям делать то, или иное, тем больше у них интерес: "А что же такое разработчики скрывают от нас?" Так что, я считаю в этом случае выхода три:
- Либо сделать защиту на bsp от декомпиляции (ну это относится к картам, которые входят в платный mod),
- либо долго и упорно писать tutorials по продвинутому mapping,
- либо всё делать в открытом коде. Всё. Я считаю, тема закрыта. --]{o$Тя 17:51, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
- hah, Русский набирает популярность во многих странах ;) . Конечно, неправильно, если человек, который делает свои карты на подобие тех, которые входят в содержание ПЛАТНОГО mod, но если карты бесплатны ;) то сейчас популярнее среди разработчиков карт, в большинстве случаев многопользовательских (multiplayer), дюелать открытый код (Open Source), в архивах (rar or zip etc.) картостроители (mappers) добавляют также и .vmf файлы. Не все же люди в мире жадные, не так ли? ;) А как вы знаете сами, запретный плод сладок! Чем больше запрешаешь людям делать то, или иное, тем больше у них интерес: "А что же такое разработчики скрывают от нас?" Так что, я считаю в этом случае выхода три:
