Talk:SDK Docs: Difference between revisions

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<strong style="display:block;text-align:center;">Archives</strong>
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* [http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:SDK_Docs&oldid=109619 August 4 2008]
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* [http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:SDK_Docs&oldid=116470 April 30 2009]
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|text=*[http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:SDK_Docs&oldid=109619 August 4 2008]<br />
* [http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:SDK_Docs&oldid=116470 April 30 2009]<br />
* [http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/index.php?title=Talk:SDK_Docs&oldid=163196 December 05 2011]
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== Error Nobody Seems to be Able To Help Me On! ==
== Shortname or longname ==
So basically I keep getting this stupid error and nobody seems to know whats going on. Can someone help!? Like seriously It is really getting on my nerves because I spend weeks maybe months on maps and then they never compile! :/
Compare this [[Template:KV_RenderFields]] and this [[Template:KV_Shadow]] and this [[Template:I_RenderFields]]. As you can see, sometimes it's "bool"/"int" but sometimes "boolean"/"integer". What will be better to use? --[[User:Mehiller|Mehiller]] 21:54, 2 May 2012 (PDT)
:In my opinion, "boolean" and "integer" is friendlier for non-programmers, though I would prefer the shorthand versions. That's just me. &mdash;[[User:Mattshu|Mattshu]] 23:11, 11 July 2012 (PDT)


Loading d:\program files (x86)\steam\steamapps\beano_weano\sourcesdk_content\cstrike\mapsrc\cs_test.bsp
== SFM link ==
Error opening d:\program files (x86)\steam\steamapps\beano_weano\sourcesdk_content\cstrike\mapsrc\cs_test.bsp


Executing... <br>
The link at the Source page for the [[Source Filmmaker]] leads to a Category page. Which isn't supposed to happen. Can you guys fix it? --[[User:017Bluefield|017Bluefield]] 23:39, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
Command: Copy File <br>
:I'm thinking that was intentional. &mdash;[[User:Mattshu|Mattshu]] 23:56, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
Parameters: "D:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\beano_weano\sourcesdk_content\cstrike\mapsrc\cs_test.bsp" "d:\program files (x86)\steam\steamapps\beano_weano\counter-strikesource\cstrike\maps\cs_test.bsp" <br>
::Uh-huh… Did you check the history yet? Any edit—even the vandalism type—gets recorded their, right? --[[User:017Bluefield|017Bluefield]] 00:13, 11 July 2012 (PDT)
:::Yes. You're referring to the link on [[SDK Docs]], right? &mdash;[[User:Mattshu|Mattshu]] 00:16, 11 July 2012 (PDT)
::::Yeah. I remember checking it yesterday, but it must've slipped my mind today. --[[User:017Bluefield|017Bluefield]] 12:42, 11 July 2012 (PDT)
::::Nevermind. It's someone named Dmx6 who did the edit. --[[User:017Bluefield|017Bluefield]] 12:45, 11 July 2012 (PDT)
:::::{{user|Dmx6}} is a regular, trusted contributor to the wiki. It is linked to the category page because it contains many resources for using SMF. Sorry, but I'm not sure where you're seeing the vandalism. &mdash;[[User:Mattshu|Mattshu]] 22:42, 11 July 2012 (PDT)


The command failed. Windows reported the error:
== New design ==
  "The system cannot find the file specified."


Whats up with that? can someone please help me?! :( thanks!
I've been testing the [[User:THE OWL/Sandbox/Pages/Software docs|new design]] in my sandbox. It's not finished as I don't work with VDC very often now, but I still wanted to offer a new look.


== Keyvalues or SmartEdit text? ==
[[File:Source SDK documentation page redesign.jpg|400px]]


How should the keyvalues for entities be described? The options are the following:
=== Pros ===
* There is now quick access to Source Engine branches and their SDKs.
: {{Note|Not that it's useful, but when I needed it, I couldn't find the tool I needed  quickly because someone didn't even bother to create a redirect from Source SDK Base 2013 to Source SDK 2013 🗿}}
* Now games don't hide from you. Documentation of their tools is right on the Source SDK page.
: {{Note|The level design page with a link to the games now doesn't always link to the level design (for example, [[Team Fortress 2/Docs]]), and you have to do more unnecessary actions to reach the game tools page.}}
* The colors and larger content size will help you find the right link faster.
* The new design should look better on mobile devices (well, if rewritten).


1. SmartEdit text only: the keyvalues are listed and described using the smartedit text only. Example: A possible value for the [[npc_citizen]] keyvalue "Ammo To Resupply" is "Crossbow Bolt".  
=== Cons ===
* My design offers a larger view of the links, which forces you to scroll down the page to reach certain links.
: {{Note|I don't think it's a problem because it's easier to identify links. Spending time on scrolling is much less than trying to find a certain link among a bunch of other links in a row.}}


2. Actual keyvalue: they keyvalues are listed and described using the actual keyvalues only. Example: A possible value for the [[npc_citizen]] keyvalue "AmmoSupply" is "XBowBolt".
--[[User:THE OWL|THE OWL]] ([[User talk:THE OWL|talk]]) 22:00, 3 November 2024 (PST)
:: New design is not needed. The current one works perfectly fine and I don't have to scroll to see all links. One thing from it that would be good to do is adding the links to individual game doc pages but not with such overly huge boxes --[[User:Nescius|Nescius]] ([[User talk:Nescius|talk]]) 07:12, 4 November 2024 (PST)
::: I'll try to do something about it later.
::: [[User:THE OWL|THE OWL]] ([[User talk:THE OWL|talk]])


3. Both SmartEdit text and actual keyvalues: the keyvalues are listed and described using both systems. Example: A possible value for [[npc_citizen]] keyvalue "Ammo To Resupply (AmmoSupply)" is "Crossbow Bolt (XBowBolt)".  
== About the Brief Description ==
I added a simple description to make this SDK documentation similar to all the others. Also, I think it helps to find different versions of Source SDK faster.


Previously, entries were generally a mixture of 1 and 3, with some keyvalues described using the smartedit text and then the "literal value" which was the actual keyvalue. These literal values are being removed as part of [[User:Tom Edwards|Tom's]] much-welcome cleanup of the entity entries. Using only 2 (the actual keyvalue) has led to some confusion, as in the recent back and forth edits of [[Env_hudhint]].
I'm sure it's useful, and beginners to working with Source in general didn't get a brief description of the here and now before.


Ideally, there would be a link on each page (view entry as SmartEdit text / view entry as Keyvalues) which would switch between the two. If this is too complicated, then perhaps we could have some other system which would describe the relationship between keyvalues and their SmartEdit counterparts? --[[User:Fitzroy doll|Fitzroy doll]] 10:05, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm leaving this topic here to explain the reason for adding the description and to provide a place to discuss this edit, if any.
: Thanks for the support. I spent an unhealthy amount of time editing yesterday. ;-) My reasoning for removing the raw keyvalue names is that they are only ever seen when writing an [[FGD]] or [[DATADESC]]; the only other (and the most important) time KVs crop up is in Hammer dialogues, where SmartEdit gives them friendly names. Even if you turn SmartEdit off for some reason, you can always turn it back on again. --[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 10:14, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
::Okay fair enough. The raw keyvalues also come up in mods in which users can create edits to entity tables by hand, outside hammer (GMOD, SMOD, Obsidian Conflict, Synergy, etc.) or when viewing ent tables extracted from bsps for reference. But I suppose these are specialised circumstances, not directly related to the use of the SDK itself. Many existing entity entries will need a look with this new view in mind to make the policy consistent, and perhaps a notice should be placed in the [[Help:Contents]] section to inform future editors. --[[User:Fitzroy doll|Fitzroy doll]] 10:36, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


[[User:TheFixer333|TheFixer333]] has added KV names directly after the friendly SmartEdit names [http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/index.php?title=Template:KV_Targetname&oldid=122952 here] and [http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/index.php?title=Template:KV_Angles&oldid=122954 here]. I added the brackets myself so that the two names are more clearly separated, but I still don't think this is a good solution. If the reader isn't aware of the difference between raw and friendly names the inclusion of the former is confusing - especially when it means you end up with odd things like "Pitch Yaw Roll (angles) <angle>". It's a good job the friendly name isn't "angles" too!
--[[User:THE OWL|THE OWL]] ([[User talk:THE OWL|talk]]) 16:19, 13 May 2025 (PDT)
 
Any inclusion of raw names needs to be done in such a way that it is initially hidden from view, as Fitzroy suggested. The people who need that information are just too few and far between to justify the complications caused to everyone else.
 
And to re-iterate what I explained to someone else, yes having a title on templates with a single entry takes up a lot of space, but it ''is'' necessary for consistency. There's nothing worse than scrolling down the list and seeing something that sits differently. Is it special? Is it a mistake? --[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 16:16, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
::I agree that "SmartEdit (keyvalue)" is not an ideal solution, if for no other reason than that the format is inconsistently applied. For now the bracketed keyvalues should be removed. In the long term, I still hold out hope for a stylesheet-like switch that would mimic the SmartEdit on/off in Hammer.--[[User:Fitzroy doll|Fitzroy doll]] 13:49, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 
== Retiring [[Template:EP1 add]] ==
 
I think we can assume that everyone is at least using the Ep1 codebase now. Retiring the template is easy: we just replace its contents with {{{1}}}.
 
Anyone feel that it still serves a purpose? --[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 08:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
: Retired it. --[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 10:27, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 
== Note/Tip/Warning/Bug message wrap ==
 
See [[Template:Tip]] for my proposal. --[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 10:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
: Seems reasonable. Will need to see it in context to see how well the decreased left hand margin will work. --[[User:JeffLane|JeffLane]] 21:05, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
::There's a good comparison at [[Visibility optimization#Leaves]]. The margin change isn't a big deal: I chose an em value almost at random and just never bothered to get it any closer to the px equivalent. --[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 21:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
::: Extended it to the other templates. --[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 10:27, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 
I changed the method by which the text was preventing from wrapping around, since it was causing problems when multiple floating images were present in an article. The new CSS works in everything except IE<8. --[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 11:22, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 
== New SDK Docs layout ==
 
Draft is at [[User:TomEdwards/SDK Docs draft]]. This version:
 
* Reduces bumf before you reach the contents table to the essentials
* Removes table items that are subcategories of other items (e.g. AI and VGUI)
* Sorts categories by popularity (kind of)
* Shortens category descriptions
* Adds translation flags (they are misaligned because of the link back to my userpage)
* Uses a nicer logo
 
--[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 11:15, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
: Agreed, this could use an update. We'll use this version with some minor tweaks. --[[User:JeffLane|JeffLane]] 21:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
:: Fantastic, thanks. :-) --[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 17:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
::: When add translation flags updated? --[[User:Haunebu|김형준]] 19:13, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
 
== Translation naming policy ==
 
It seems odd to me that we're forcing translated pages to be titled in English. I understand that it's important for admins to know what a page is about even if they don't read the language it's written in, but that could be achieved with redirects... --[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 17:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
: We know this is not ideal, but this is unfortunately tied to a technical constraint. We've discovered on multiple occasions that page titles with Unicode encoding can get mangled during the backup and restore process. Besides that, creating redirects for every translated page does not sound like a very practical solution, as the page titles could easily get out of sync.
: However, as a possible solution, I have altered the configuration so that the restrictions on the usage of <code><nowiki>{{DISPLAYTITLE}}</nowiki></code> are relaxed. This means that a template like [[Template:Wrongtitle]] could be constructed to display an entirely different display name on the page. The actual URL of the page remains the same, but the page header (and HTML page title) can be displayed in the localized language. It's also possible that this functionality could be added as a parameter (e.g. "displaytitle") to the existing language tags, as the location on the page is irrelevant and that would tie together the linking functions. The main downside for all this is that editors will still need to use the English page title in links. But for the reader, it is more of an end-to-end localization solution. I'm also not entirely sure if there could be any negative  implications with the search engine (there may not be). The functionality should generally be avoided for other use, as there is a usability costs with mismatched display and URL naming, which is why the usage is restricted by default.--[[User:JeffLane|JeffLane]] 02:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
:: That works a treat Jeff. --[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 10:27, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
:: Only hitch is [http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=Примечания+к+выпуску&go=Go on-site search results]. Do you think there's a solution? --[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 11:32, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 
== AI Category? ==
 
It seems like it would be a good idea to add the AI section to this page.
: It's under programming. --[[user:TomEdwards|TomEdwards]] 11:30, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
:: So it is. --[[user:Lancelot|Lance]]

Latest revision as of 16:56, 13 May 2025

English (en)Deutsch (de)Svenska (sv)
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This is the discussion page of SDK Docs. To add a comment, use the Edit button near the headline of the appropriate section. To create a new section, you can use the Add topic button at the top of this page.
Comments on talk pages should be signed with "~~~~", which will be converted into your signature and a timestamp.
*August 4 2008

Shortname or longname

Compare this Template:KV_RenderFields and this Template:KV_Shadow and this Template:I_RenderFields. As you can see, sometimes it's "bool"/"int" but sometimes "boolean"/"integer". What will be better to use? --Mehiller 21:54, 2 May 2012 (PDT)

In my opinion, "boolean" and "integer" is friendlier for non-programmers, though I would prefer the shorthand versions. That's just me. —Mattshu 23:11, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

SFM link

The link at the Source page for the Source Filmmaker leads to a Category page. Which isn't supposed to happen. Can you guys fix it? --017Bluefield 23:39, 10 July 2012 (PDT)

I'm thinking that was intentional. —Mattshu 23:56, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
Uh-huh… Did you check the history yet? Any edit—even the vandalism type—gets recorded their, right? --017Bluefield 00:13, 11 July 2012 (PDT)
Yes. You're referring to the link on SDK Docs, right? —Mattshu 00:16, 11 July 2012 (PDT)
Yeah. I remember checking it yesterday, but it must've slipped my mind today. --017Bluefield 12:42, 11 July 2012 (PDT)
Nevermind. It's someone named Dmx6 who did the edit. --017Bluefield 12:45, 11 July 2012 (PDT)
Dmx6 is a regular, trusted contributor to the wiki. It is linked to the category page because it contains many resources for using SMF. Sorry, but I'm not sure where you're seeing the vandalism. —Mattshu 22:42, 11 July 2012 (PDT)

New design

I've been testing the new design in my sandbox. It's not finished as I don't work with VDC very often now, but I still wanted to offer a new look.

Source SDK documentation page redesign.jpg

Pros

  • There is now quick access to Source Engine branches and their SDKs.
Note.pngNote:Not that it's useful, but when I needed it, I couldn't find the tool I needed quickly because someone didn't even bother to create a redirect from Source SDK Base 2013 to Source SDK 2013 🗿
  • Now games don't hide from you. Documentation of their tools is right on the Source SDK page.
Note.pngNote:The level design page with a link to the games now doesn't always link to the level design (for example, Team Fortress 2/Docs), and you have to do more unnecessary actions to reach the game tools page.
  • The colors and larger content size will help you find the right link faster.
  • The new design should look better on mobile devices (well, if rewritten).

Cons

  • My design offers a larger view of the links, which forces you to scroll down the page to reach certain links.
Note.pngNote:I don't think it's a problem because it's easier to identify links. Spending time on scrolling is much less than trying to find a certain link among a bunch of other links in a row.

--THE OWL (talk) 22:00, 3 November 2024 (PST)

New design is not needed. The current one works perfectly fine and I don't have to scroll to see all links. One thing from it that would be good to do is adding the links to individual game doc pages but not with such overly huge boxes --Nescius (talk) 07:12, 4 November 2024 (PST)
I'll try to do something about it later.
THE OWL (talk)

About the Brief Description

I added a simple description to make this SDK documentation similar to all the others. Also, I think it helps to find different versions of Source SDK faster.

I'm sure it's useful, and beginners to working with Source in general didn't get a brief description of the here and now before.

I'm leaving this topic here to explain the reason for adding the description and to provide a place to discuss this edit, if any.

--THE OWL (talk) 16:19, 13 May 2025 (PDT)

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