Template talk:Hacker

This is actually retarded. JoshuaAshton (talk) 02:13, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Do we really need this? We already have User:Pinsplash/How_to_deal_with_hackers, also not to mention the hacker can remove their "marking" so there is no point for making this. Coolcraftteam (talk) 02:21, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Ahaha, immediately after (see image on the right)

JoshuaAshton (talk) 02:24, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I mean Pinsplash, if you want to come out and defend this Template, certainly do. But banning me from your crappy VDC Discord when everyone else also disagrees with you won't solve anything :^) JoshuaAshton (talk) 02:28, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that editing a user's page goes against wiki ettiquette - and should be avoided. SharpOB (talk) 02:53, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I am done attempting to reason with you. I fully believe you have no faith in actually improving this website and that you're only trying to get on my nerves. Keep this up, and soon you will be wasting an administrator's time. Pinsplash (talk) 02:37, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm sure of that Pinsplash, it's not like you consistently make awful changes that people disagree with on this site. JoshuaAshton (talk) 02:38, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

So wait Pinsplash, you don't have any faith that he can improve this website because he doesn't agree with your wrong point? Coolcraftteam (talk) 05:43, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Oh he has potential to actually contribute around here alright. Pinsplash (talk) 05:40, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

User_talk:Pinsplash/How_to_deal_with_hackers See what I wrote here:

A large portion is bad advice, caution should always be heavily exercised. Just because someone is from HackerOne, it doesn't mean you should let them get away with bloody murder. Many people claim to be ethical hackers but are actually doing much worse things in the background. If you see any actual exploits, regardless of whether the person says they're an ethical hacker or whatever, just report it. This is why the Template:Hacker page is so rediculous.

JoshuaAshton (talk) 02:44, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to be blunt here, this is stupid. If there is a hacker on the site, you report it to Valve, it's that simple. Placing tags on a suspected "hacker's" profile is ridiculous. Slartibarty (talk) 02:45, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. Pinsplash should not be creating a template to call "HACKER!" on people - because they do not have the authority to do that, or to be trusted to do that. This kind of thing should be left to Valve, and Pinsplash should stop this wiki god complex. You are not god of the wiki, and you don't have the authority to scream "HACKER!" on people.SharpOB (talk) 02:49, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

It's not really a matter of authority more as... well, knowing what a hack attempt of any kind looks like (so far, the ones I've seen were all pretty obvious). A non-blocked user can edit their user/user talk page in the case that the template is ever used abusively which so far it never has. I don't know why you seem to think that I would (or that I think I should) be trusted blindly, or that I even have a way to hide Special:Contributions data for a specific user to enforce people to trust me blindly. If you actually think that this is still going to be an issue, wait till you see Template:Spammer. The same principals all apply to that template as well. Template:Spammer actually has in the past been used abusively, but the solution to that was always to remove the template from pages it is not supposed to be on. Also, nobody called User:Ts2do out on having a "wiki god complex" when he made it or worried that he was abusing authority. Pinsplash (talk) 06:26, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Also I must say,

I've assured the Administrator that nothing will go wrong

JoshuaAshton (talk) 02:47, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Flame and insult all you wish, if you have objections to something, you can speak in a civil manner like the rest of us. I'm disregarding this and all future attacks you direct at me. Let me tell you, you are banned from many online communities for a good reason. Pinsplash (talk) 02:49, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

That's funny - you're also banned from online communities for good reasons.SharpOB (talk) 02:52, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

The discussions that I've seen so far from Josh that happened here are civil. Coolcraftteam (talk) 02:52, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm not flaming you. To flame would mean I was insulting you without warrant. I'm not flaming you, merely stating facts and actions of your own. JoshuaAshton (talk) 02:54, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I do have to agree with Josh on this, it doesn't really make much sense. Report the user. A "hacker" sign A) doesn't have any authority behind it, B) can be trivially removed, and C) isn't going to stop anyone. --TeamSpen210 (talk) 03:08, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Josh. This is sort of a dumb template. If something's amiss, contact an admin. Tagging suspected hackers on their talk page won't do anything useful. All these "provisions" since the hacking "incident" are kind of strange. --Stract (talk) 03:33, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm not using this as a substitute for emailing Valve. Never intended it to be one. I'm not sure what led you to believe that. Pinsplash (talk) 07:02, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

You people need to understand that this wiki is meant to be a source of information for developers working with Valve's games. If you spot a hacker, you contact Valve and let them handle it. Spend your time improving the wiki, like making it easier to find related information. Add missing or incomplete information. Nobody cares for these fights, it's an overreaction to something that has happened a handful of times in the 13+ years this wiki has been around. The arguments that spring up as a result certainly aren't fun to read or take part in. The only real problems i've seen on this wiki are:

• Spambots (seem to be largely taken care of now)
• MediaWiki exploits (contact a Valve employee to update the software)
• Intentional spreading of misinformation/removal of factual information (revert if you spot these)
• Edit wars and arguments (case in point)

No matter how good you are at modding, no matter how much experience you have in dealing with wiki management, you're all still amateurs working on this as a hobby. Try not to take it too seriously, because you'll only end up frustrating yourselves and those who have to deal with you, and no good can come from that. Solokiller (talk) 14:04, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

How many times do I have to make this clear that the template is not intended as some alternative to contacting Valve?? It's only meant for wiki readers to be able to quickly understand what's going on. I really thought this would have been obvious but wow. Pinsplash (talk) 14:14, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't think this wiki's userbase needs their hand held when it comes to hackers. If you feel that Valve is responding too slowly to reports of hackers then i would suggest to them to assign a community manager or moderator to check this wiki on a regular basis and to allow them to deal with hackers. For example, Kisak is a community moderator on Valve's Github who handles user reports to get the information needed to help resolve them: https://github.com/ValveSoftware/portal2/issues/300

Empowering random wiki users who happen to be active or vocal is a bad idea, so let's not go there. This is a problem for Valve to solve, so let's just make sure they're aware of the problem so they can resolve it. Clearly trying to do so yourself will only anger other wiki users who disagree with the rather invasive and accusatory approach to handling such situations. I would recommend to everyone involved to refrain from partaking in edit wars such as the one that's currently taking place: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/index.php?title=Template:Hacker&action=history

This is childish and shows only that you lack the very authority that you are trying to exercise. Solokiller (talk) 14:30, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

What authority? This is as accusatory as Template:Spammer, which actually has in the past been used abusively, and the solution to abuses was always to remove the template from pages it is not supposed to be on. Do we as wiki editors also not have the """authority""" to call somebody a spammer? Calling somebody a hacker doesn't require some mythical amount of authority and spotting one doesn't require a comp sci degree. Pinsplash (talk) 14:40, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

And I've talked to Jeff Lane about moderation before but no response. I'm not sure what to do. Pinsplash (talk) 14:44, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps he's not responding because he doesn't want to get involved in these kinds of arguments. It would help if you didn't take action entirely on your own. The world isn't going to end because a hacker wasn't marked as such. Solokiller (talk) 14:49, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I contacted him back around early July before these pointlessly inflammatory arguments sprung up. This template isn't exactly vital but I simply don't believe there's reason to delete it. Pinsplash (talk) 14:56, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

"Hacking" is a strong word, a criminal offense, and certainly not a joke

This nonsensical, juvenile conversation about quote/unquote "hacking" needs to stop. Right now. I don't think many of you truly understand the sheer gravity exerted behind that word, when you use it. When you accuse someone of hacking, you're accusing them of committing a crime. Hacking is a serious crime, and that means a criminal record and jail time. Want a knock at your front door in the middle of the night? That's what I thought.

Hackers are criminals. Like murderers, thieves, mobsters, etc., they don't want to get caught. Why in the hell would they randomly pop on to an easily accessible website (on the surface web too, for that matter), put a target on their heads, and broadcast their crimes to the rest of the world? They wouldn't. And you guys need to grow up. A real hacker wouldn't "hack" an open-source MediaWiki site of all things. Real hackers care about money, not some random site on the internet, especially not a wiki centered around videogame development. It would be a complete waste of time on their part. And anyone claiming to be a "hacker" is a bored kid with too much time on his hands, and someone who knows very little about computers in general.

There are no "hackers" here because actual hackers don't waste their time on trivial matters, such as this site. In short, real hackers want your bank account information, not your VDC account information.

Don't argue about that which you do not know the true meaning of. – DJFluXion 03:24, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I think you're getting a bit too caught up in extremes and I don't know why. A hacker is "a person who uses computers to gain unauthorized access to data." I don't necessarily think this is a necessary template, but you're kind of barking up the wrong tree I think. --Stract (talk) 03:33, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Good job defining the crime of hacking. I'm intrigued at your ability to use a dictionary. – DJFluXion 03:38, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I feel I should add that both of you don't have the definition 100% correct. Hacking can also refer to people experimenting with things, such as hack-a-thons or the like. Either way, though, it's a cringe-worthy application of the term. SharpOB (talk) 03:43, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree, we certainly shouldn't be accusing anyone of a criminal offense on the wiki here. Which is one of the reasons why I was saying this template is ridiculous. I disagree with:

Don't argue about that which you do not know the true meaning of.

It's very assumptive, and saying we shouldn't have a conversation on the issue, well look what you're doing now. JoshuaAshton (talk) 03:45, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm only stating the facts. Notice how I said that the "nonsensical, juvenile conversation" needs to stop. There is nothing nonsensical or juvenile about civilly discussing facts. My argument is that if people understood the gravity (what the word truly means) of the word they were using, their use of said word would be a lot more reserved, such as to avoid inappropriate usage. But of course, idiots will say anything without thinking. The fact is "hack" and its derivatives, are overused words today, because they have been distorted from their original meaning. I'm shining light on the real meaning of the word, and people calling me an "extremist" and saying that I'm "barking up the wrong tree" only proves this.

Agree to disagree is a civilized manner. In the end, it's your choice to believe what you want. Deny the facts or accept them. Have the last word, here, after this post, if it'll help you sleep at night. This is my final message.

PS: SharpOB, I'm not talking about programming competitions, so that comment was completely irrelevant. "Hackathon" is a portmanteau of "hack" and "marathon", which, don't be fooled, is synonymous with programming competition. Considering how off-the-wall that comment is to my original message, I can't tell if you're just playing dumb, or are actually dumb. – DJFluXion 04:21, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

If it's been distorted by its original meaning, and that's the meaning we use today - then maybe you should accept that and get over the fact that the word has changed. JoshuaAshton (talk) 09:01, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Directing this towards uh this entire page: Just going to add, we actually did have a hacking attempt believed to be genuinely malicious back at the start of July. This was immediately followed by a non-malicious hacker who was only testing security flaws (at that time, the wiki software was on an obsolete version from 2014). This hacker actually DID find XSS vulnerabilities and probably some other security flaws in the website. We and many modder/mapper groups all could have avoided a large amount of panic if the user had just communicated with us at first. If you all wish to raise hell every time somebody on this wiki puts the word "script" in something, I can't stop you. By all means, go ahead, scream at Valve ([email protected]), spam every modder group you can. What you will likely end up doing is waste everybody's time including your own by causing a false panic. Really, is it sooooo bad that I just want to even attempt to warn others viewing the wiki that somebody's edits may be dangerous for them to view? Or that somebody's not trying to do crap like install a bitcoin miner onto your computer? You can try and helicopter-watch somebody's edits as they save them and then change them, it really doesn't do either of you any good if actual communication is also an option, but what do I know, I'm the fucking retard here and played no role in the Early July 2018 hacking incident, certainly did not manage that situation, certainly did not give updates on it to multiple discord servers (not to mention TF2Maps.net staff), a subreddit, and Lambda Generation. There's my defense of this template that does not serve any purpose in being deleted, and isn't even marked for deletion, because its only crimes are that it was made by me and was found by Joshua. By the way, this is a developer MediaWiki, not Imgur. Host your Discord server ban log elsewhere. Pinsplash (talk) 05:26, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and Sharp: I've decided from the future on I'm going to put those on the talk page instead. Pinsplash (talk) 05:38, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Well that's fine. I just marked it for deletion. Even if they communicated first, there is still no reason not to report it ourselves because a security vulnerability is still a security vulnerability, and people proclaiming to be ethical hackers cannot be trusted more than anyone else. That ban which you believe is so non-pertinent to discussion only goes to show your poor attitude about your recent awful changes and bad advice. Reporting someone for an exploit doesn't make you any better than the rest of us here either, sure it's cool that you did that, but I'm sure I speak for quite a few people here when I say: Get the hell over your superiority complex. JoshuaAshton (talk) 08:57, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I decided to read User:Pinsplash/Early_July_2018_hacking_incident, I was right in thinking that it was SVG embedding. It's an svg from a different origin based on what you said and I have my severe doubts about this "malicious mp4 file," that apparently "downloaded and ran a bitcoin miner" as you're actually reporting a Chrome/Browser exploit here too, which I can't find any details about. Sounds like complete BS. Sure it is an exploit that they can run scripts inside an svg, but this whole bitcoin miner stuff sounds like crap. JoshuaAshton (talk) 09:09, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Censorship

This speaks for itself really, things I said were also removed from Ficool2's talkpage JoshuaAshton (talk) 00:51, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Maybe if you would just talk like a human being instead of making pathetic attempts at slandering us for not wanting to deal with you being a manchild. Also, I'm not sure why but you are cherrypicking here. There's tons more instances of reverts made by ficool in the revert war that was mainly between you and him which you are trying to make appear to be all on me for some reason, both by intentionally picking an example where I was the one reverting, and by putting my name in the image title (again, this wiki is not imgur). 1 2 3

Also, the fact you call us removing your false and malicious edits "censorship" is just... oh my god. Read a book. Go outside. Don't you have a mod to be working on? Pinsplash (talk) 01:22, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

It's not slander, you've done it numerous times. I agree most of it came from Ficool. I'm not trying to be malicious, but you two are seriously annoying a lot of people here, making large changes without consulting people, making poor quality and sometimes incorrect changes and being incredibly stubborn. When you have a few pages like this against you, and similar things on your talk page... Maybe you should just give up and admit you don't know what the hell you're doing. Honestly, this wiki would be better off without you. JoshuaAshton (talk) 02:31, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Everything you just said has little to no basis which you are very aware of. You want me gone? Get an admin and you'll see just what happens :) Pinsplash (talk) 02:42, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Could all of you please stop fighting your wars on this wiki?

Joshua: You can disagree with others without having to be childish and reverting changes. This being a wiki, all that does is add pointless revisions.

Pinsplash: Stop talking about getting admins or Valve employees involved and behave like an adult. People have complained about your actions here in several places in the past few weeks. Stick to providing content and stop playing administrator.

The same goes for everybody else, and if there is a problem that requires administrators and Valve isn't responding, work on the greater issue of the lack of communication and difficulty in getting in touch instead of taking matters into your own hands. As for your behavior on your Discord, it's your Discord so you can set the rules - though i do not agree with how you have managed it - but here Valve's rules apply. To clarify, here are their rules: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Developer_Community:Terms_of_Use

Note the section on copyright. Valve expects you to notify them, not flag the work as copyrighted yourself. I expect you to respond to hackers in the same manner.

I will quote this part since it applies here:

Your online conduct and interaction with other subscribers should be guided by common sense and basic etiquette.

Your actions have resulted in long-winded arguments, last week you tried to force a change by way of a poll even when everybody was telling you you were wrong, and Wikipedia's approach to the situation agrees with them.

I expect the lot of you will take a good long look at those terms of use and understand that these actions are unproductive and are harming the quality of this wiki. We need as many contributors as we can get and these arguments only serve to scare off newcomers and longtime members alike. If you can't behave yourselves, it may be best if you refrain from contributing at all.

Now let's try to avoid any more of these arguments in the future, shall we? Solokiller (talk) 12:24, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Can agree, this is just getting more and more confusing to read, unsure of who is right or who is wrong, best if it just ends at this point instead. Avanate (talk) 13:28, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't like these arguments either. It is a big waste of time. I've tried to be less active than usual because I hope that Joshua would move on to do other stuff, but I have to defend my reasoning and self at least. The poll thing was Ficool's (and frankly by then I gave up caring about who was wrong or right about it). I know Joshua (from multiple previous experiences) to have a history of being toxic (and a troll), so he was already on thin ice in my book but I don't think anybody wants to go into that right now. Pinsplash (talk) 17:09, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Nobody cares about your book Pinsplash, here we go again with you, the god of the VDC :v Just stop it already and admit you made a bad decision. But that'll never happen because Pinsplash is *always* correct. JoshuaAshton (talk) 18:41, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

You're both wrong, and stop arguing here. Solokiller (talk) 21:07, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I've decided I don't care about this anymore by the way. Pinsplash (talk) 19:01, 3 September 2018 (UTC)