Category talk:Steam Applications

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Revision as of 09:08, 25 April 2006 by Giles (talk | contribs) (Tools)

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Changing the structure of these categories

The structure of these categories keeps changing, without any discussion. I don't think it's productive to just keep changing stuff unilaterally in the hope that some workable layout sticks, so here is a new rule I just made up for these categories:

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE CHANGES TO THESE CATEGORIES WITHOUT DISCUSSING YOUR PLANS HERE FIRST. CHANGES MADE WITHOUT DISCUSSION ARE LIABLE TO BE REVERTED

Right, some discussion. The current structure is now:

  • Steam Applications
    • Freeware Applications
      • HL1 Third Party Mods
      • HL2 Third Party Mods
      • Mods in Alpha
      • Mods in Beta
      • Released Mods
      • Tools
        • Hammer
    • Official Addons
    • Official Demos
    • Official Games
      • Official Goldsource Games
      • Official Source Games
      • Official third party games
      • Official Third Party Goldsource Games
      • Official Third Party Source Games
    • Third Party Tools

Is it me, or is that ridiculously complex?

These are the principles that I think this list should adher to:

  • The purpose of this category is to provide a list of all games (inc. mods and non-Source/Goldsource titles) to allow people browsing to quickly and efficiently find the article they are looking for.
  • Articles should appear in the subcategories/this category only once.
  • The subcategory tree should only be one deep. There should not be subcategories within subcategories because this conceals information from people attempting to browse the list.
  • Subcategories should be named in an intuitive manner, so that people browsing can quickly work out where they can find what they are looking for. ("Freeware applications" isn't an intuitive way of describing "mods", imo.)
  • Games that are mods built using the SDK and games that are built using a full Source engine license are different and so should be kept separate.
  • It is desirable to have a more detailed mod list, which can be browsed according to "singleplayer/multiplayer", "released", "alpha/beta/etc". (But this should be done without having articles appear more than once.)
  • Simplicity is a virtue.

Based on these principles, I propose the following category structure:

  • Steam Applications
    • Valve Games (including games/demos/addons made by Valve and games made by other developers based on Valve properties)
    • Source-engine licensed Games
    • Other Games on Steam
    • Goldsource (HL1) Mods
    • Source (HL2) Mods
    • Tools
  • Mods (note the separate top-category; this is to stop duplicate entries appearing under Steam Applications)
    • Mods in Alpha
    • Mods in Beta
    • Released Mods
    • Singleplayer Mods
    • Multiplayer Mods
  • Hammer (Hammer should be in Category: Tools, but category Hammer should simply be a redirect or link from there)

Please feel free to share your opinions on any of this. I propose that when it comes to major changes, discussions be held for a period of at least 3 days before any changes are made. Giles 02:06, 13 Apr 2006 (PDT)

I thought that my changes were too cluttersome...but I do believe it would also be a good idea to list types of software (freeware, shareware, etc)
Hammer (Hammer should be in Category: Tools, but category Hammer should simply be a redirect or link from there)

What are you saying here?

ALSO...I do like the idea of changing HL1 Third Party Mods & HL2 Third Party Mods to Goldsource Mods and Source Mods...HL1 & HL2 shouldn't be subscripted because it's simple to pull up Goldsource & Source...the only problem with this would be a huge batch recategorization of mods

otherwise, I like your outline—ts2do 06:44, 13 Apr 2006 (PDT)

In terms of types of software, is that the sort of thing you think should be reflected in the subcategory title, or just in the subcategory description? I'm of the opinion that "mod" implies free and "games" implies stuff you buy, but if you disagree, feel free to suggest different titles.
Regarding Hammer, my point was that :Category:Hammer is documentation for how to use Hammer, so it doesn't really make sense that that information be categorised under "Steam Applications".
When it comes to using the term Goldsource, I don't think it should be used without mentioning HL1 alongside it (at least not in a title where it can't be easily looked up). Whereas "the Source engine" is a concept that Valve have spent a lot of time talking about and getting into the minds of their userbase, "Goldsource" is something that's only emerged recently and is still very niche. If you went on to, for example, the Steam forums and asked people if they knew what Goldsource was, I think a lot of people would be confused. Most however would understand what "the HL1 engine" is.
I agree that the naming would take prohibitively long. It's perhaps more important for the HL2 stuff that it be renamed, since already mods have started appearing that have no relation to HL2. One extra incentive for going through the list would be that there is already some weeding out to do - mods that have been cancelled (/are "dead") need to be flagged for deletion, etc.
Giles 00:36, 14 Apr 2006 (PDT)

Regarding the types of software: I'm talking about categorizing tools for people who want to find nice free tools—ts2do 11:38, 14 Apr 2006 (PDT)

I like Giles' categorizing better than free/non-free one, because it's simpler and logical. I feel a category for third party tools is missing, though. --n-neko 18:42, 14 Apr 2006 (PDT)

Cleanup

"Official Addons", "Official Mods", "Official third party games" and "Official Third Party Mods"? IMO, this subcategorisation is vague and ambiguous. I'm not really convinced 4 categories are required to categorise all the available information and even if that's the case, these really don't seem to be the right categories. Why are expansion packs listed under "mods"? What's an addon that makes it not a mod? What makes an official mod third-party or not? (CS:CZ was partially made by Turtle Rock, right? Etc.)

Perhaps a better classification would be "Valve-made/Not-Valve-made" or "Valve IP/Not-Valve-IP". Instead of "Official" (since it isn't really very clear what that means), "Professional" or "Commercially released" would then be more appropriate?

Also, if it were possible to browse the subcategories according to what is released and what is still under-development, and also what is single-player and what is multiplayer, I think that would also be beneficial to people trying to use these pages to find information.

Maybe I'm wrong, so I thought I'd put the cleanup tag on the article and see what others thought, instead of just diving in and fiddling around. :)

Giles 05:50, 17 Mar 2006 (PST)

I don't think CS, DoD and all the others should be called mods anymore. Of course they are mods technically, but they can be installed and purchased separately and that is what makes them (stand-alone) games in my opinion. -Koraktor

Tools

We need to have Category:Tools with Category:Valve Tools and Category:Third Party Tools while Category:Tools remains intact with all of the tools listed in both categories—ts2do 13:49, 24 Apr 2006 (PDT)

Do you mean a structure that looks like:
  • Tools (all tools listed in this category)
    • Valve Tools (relevant tools listed again in this category)
    • Third-party Tools (ditto)
Or one that looks like:
  • Tools (no tools listed in this category)
    • Valve Tools (relevant tools listed again in this category)
    • Third-party Tools (ditto) ?
The first one runs counter to the principle of having each article listed only once under Steam Apps.
My opinion is that:
  • Tools (only official tools listed, with an appropriate category description)
    • Third party tools (self-explanatory)
is perfectly intuitive and that adding another category is just extra clutter.
Another alternative would possibly be to do away with Category:Tools and put a Category:Third-Party Tools and a Category:Valve Tools into Category:Steam Applications.
Giles 02:08, 25 Apr 2006 (PDT)